This space is for us to discuss Chinese philosophy.
Hello!
This morning I looked at the different Chinese philosophies, (hey I spelled it right! ), and I am going to be a legalist for the Nov. 19th meeting.
Clay, thank you for a great first meeting! I'm really looking forward to this program.
Louis
Our debate is Saturday, Nov. 19 -- you'll need to prepare to stand up for your school of thought (Confucianism, Mohism, Daoism, or Legalism) and to point out the shortcomings in the thinking of your opponents.
Through the primary source documents in the “Early Chinese History” curriculum guide, those contained in the Ebrey Chinese Civilization reader, and (if you are so inclined) in the EWP East Asia textbook, you’ll be able to gain a sense of the richness of these teachings and how they are intertwined, how their advocates sought to address the problems they identified and realize, in some cases, shared aims.
If we had more time to cover the schools and for the debate itself, I’d have an elaborate debate format, with each group making presentations on several themes, each would also have a hatchet-man/woman whose responsibility would be to attack the perceived flaws in others groups’ thinking. We don’t have enough time to prepare and coordinate in this way, so we have to take a more informal approach.
Encounter: A Hundred Schools of Thought Contend
In capitals throughout the region rulers are consulting their advisors. It is a time of crisis, governments are crippled by corruption and war/war preparation is never-ending. States join schemes against other states and powerful families plot with others to improve their own positions. Little concern is shown common people. The elite tends to see them as a resource to be managed and marshalled in struggle against one's enemies. Commoners can only resist by running away. And they are doing this in great numbers, fleeing greedy lords and officials and brutal armies.
What has led to this danger? Technology has advanced so much. Agriculture has never been so productive. Our cities are sites of terrific trade (aided by new means of exchange) and places of a great cultural flowering. There is dance, music, and scholarly investigation.
But at the same time, weapons have been made even more lethal. Armies are larger and the devastation of war is greater than ever. Small states are being devoured by the large. Or they engage in secret diplomacy and espionage to undermine their neighbors.
In the past, in the days of the sage kings, our ancestors did not have to endure such chaos. There was order. There was peace. There was prosperity. Where have we gone wrong?
At our next session, devotees of Confucianism, Mohism, Daoism, and Legalism will gather to reflect on the desperate situation that has emerged. They will engage in a debate over what should be done to overcome this crisis.
Focus Questions
Ideologies have to provide three essential elements:
1. A description of how we arrived at the present situation (a history?) – what’s the problem(s)?
2. A description (proscription) of what should be – how things ought to be.
3. A description of what should be done to move from 1 to 2 – an action plan.
Begin your debate preparation by thinking about how your school of thought addresses these needs.
In the debate, I’ll ask questions of each school and you may ask questions of each other. In general, accent the positive in your doctrine, but it may be occasionally helpful to draw contrasts with the way other schools deal with issues you consider critical.
We’ll definitely explore the following:
Education
Is education necessary? Define a "well-educated" person. What would such a person know and be able to do? Who should provide this training?
Loyalty
To which people/institutions should a person owe his/her loyalty? What is the nature and what are the limits (if any) of these obligations?
Society/Government
Describe the ideal society and government's role (if any) in that society. Be sure to address issues such as stratification, relations between people, and qualifications/responsibilities of leaders.
You may find the chart on pages 44-45 of the curriculum guide (or that neighborhood) useful as you prepare.
Clayton my first reading of Chinese history sparked my interest. I like the format of the debate assignment for kids. I have used a similar assignment developed I think at UCLA on using primary source material with Mansa Musa and Mali. It deals with point of view and perspective. I never knew what The Hundred School Period was. I find it interesting that travelling consultants travelled from capital to capital, offering military , political, and moral advice to anyone who would listen.....thus an explosion of ideas and philosophies. I will continue reading tonight.
Cathy
Of the 4, Moism seems to be the most logical and at the same time the most caring of other humans. Therefore, I'm learning toward Moism with possible some aspects of Confucianism(sp?). I'll work on it.
I find it interesting that the lawyer of the group chose to be a Legalist. (6)
After spending more time reading I think taking the side of a legalist would be the most cut and dry. I might not agree that farming and fighting are the most important activities but it seems simple enough to defend. Just get rid of all the artists and scholars and be sure to keep all of your people on the straight and narrow by punishing them at every turn! I have never quite understood what the Daoists believe and after reading I am still confused. "If you want to shrink something be sure to stretch it..If you want to weaken something be sure to strenggthen it. If you want to discard something be sure to promote it. That kind of reminds me of when a parent says one thing the child wants to do the exact opposite. Confucius still makes the most sense to me, but I agre the Mohists sseem the most humane. Will that really work in society I don't know. Makes for some good discussion.
So, after much reading and pondering I'm leaning towards Confucianism. I find that there are aspects of each that I like and dislike. Either way I choose to go it's a trade off. I find strengths and weaknesses in each but feel pulled more towards the Confucius direction. I did not like how Moism shuns competition and cuts out "waste" and focuses more on Math and the "practical" arts. With Daoism, I am disturbed by the belief that with no knowledge people will have no desires, therefore it's better for people to be ignorant. And finally, I had a hard time with Legalism as a whole, especially when it referred to things I value as "parasite" like odes, history, benevolence, moral culture, chastity, etc. I suppose I identify most with Confucius, or at least can handle those beliefs I consider weaknesses more so than the others.
As I was reading about legalism and the idea that farming and the military were the only things that would keep an empire strong I had to think of the Cultural Revolution in China. The legalists wanted nothing to do with the artist, the scholar, the thinker. Wasn't that what happened during the Cultural Revolution under Mao. Yet, Chinese culture is so rich so old....it can't be destroyed or dismissed. The next 50 years will be telling. In answer to Clayton's question why bother.....how can we not bother to teach about China!
I found the reading to be every insightful and interesting. Like Alex, I am not suprised that our lawyer of the group chose to side with Legalism. I, however, seem to be having a difficult time choosing just one school of thought. On a theoretical level, I am leaning toward Moism, wouldn't it be nice if the world could all be so peaceful and compassionate? On a more practical level, legalism seems to be more realistic. Clayton, I really enjoyed the lesson plans, even from a counselor's perspective, the material is well organized and easy to incorportate into class discussions. Looking to forward to debate with you all on Saturday!
Times were hard- China was divided into many city states which maintained power by making war on one another. Rulers lived in constant fear of conspiracy and revolt and had little time or concern for the commoners. Farmers and merchants were heavily taxed to support the army. How do we regain the peace and prosperity our ancestors enjoyed? Who do we ask for advice ? Who do we call - CONFUCIUS ! I hope to be part of the Confucian school of thought on Sat., Nov. 19. Go rituals and education!
So, readings we should have done for Saturday are:
1. 100 Schools Period (paper by Dube)
2. Using Poetry section of the notebook (poems and paper by Allen)
3. East Asia (EWP) p.1-24 and 25-64
4. Chinese Civilization (Ebrey) Selections 1,2,4,6,7,8,10,11,14-18
Is that Right? 😀
I'm still in the Mohist camp, but in the East Asia textbook, I read that they don't like Music. Whereas, in Dube's paper, I read they supported the practical arts like Math. But, isn't Music practical? 8)
[Edit by="abroughton on Nov 17, 12:22:18 PM"][/Edit]
Thanks to all who have posted to this thread so far. You've raised terrific points and I look forward to tomorrow's debate. Clearly, some of you are more than ready to share the truth.
Hello everybody!
I was thinking about the legalist school tonight when I realized that this school has a lot in common with the actions of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia in the 1970s. I wonder if Pol Pot, who became a communist while studying in Paris in the late 1940s, was familar with the works of Shang Yang and Han Fei Zi? So many of Pol Pot's policies are in line with the legalist beliefs....from the obsession of not trusting anyone, to viewing all fellow countrymen as bad, to the need to punish/reward even the closest of allies, to not allowing anyone to get to know the leader and the obession of creating a strong agricultural society.
It's going to be difficult to defend the legalist school on Saturday...legalist philosophy isn't really defendable, especially in light of world experiences of the 20th century. It will be fin anyway!
Louis
Hello everybody!
I was thinking about the legalist school tonight when I realized that this school has a lot in common with the actions of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia in the 1970s. I wonder if Pol Pot, who became a communist while studying in Paris in the late 1940s, was familar with the works of Shang Yang and Han Fei Zi? So many of Pol Pot's policies are in line with the legalist beliefs....from the obsession of not trusting anyone, to viewing all fellow countrymen as bad, to the need to punish/reward even the closest of allies, to not allowing anyone to get to know the leader and the obession of creating a strong agricultural society.
It's going to be difficult to defend the legalist school on Saturday...legalist philosophy isn't really defendable, especially in light of world experiences of the 20th century. It will be fun anyway!
Louis
Also - the legalist ideas of not trusting anyone and enforcing more and more laws until virtually everyone is a criminal is very in line with the current Bush administration and their "Patriot" act.
The ideas of Mohism, seem to fall closely in line with Ayn Rand's Objectivism policies. Definitely more of a laisez faire approach where people realize that selfishness is good - so long as you are smart enough to realize what selfishness is. (a)