Home Forums Core Seminars East Asia: Origins to 1800, Spring 2018 Session 3 readings (dube, 3/12)

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  • #6526
    clay dube
    Spectator

    "Know thyself, know your enemy, but above all know the terrain."

    The caption for the cartoon above comes from Sun Zi, the famous ancient Chinese military strategist. The cartoon is 9 years old, from 2009, by RJ Matson in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. http://www.rjmatson.com/cgi-bin/display.cgi?image=STL950.jpg&date=08/30/2009&title=THE%20ART%20OF%20WAR%20IN%20AFGHANISTAN&pub=STL950

    The readings for session 3 focus on China's early empire.

    For each of the readings and for each of our discussions, please identify the points you found most interesting. Please discuss how you could use these materials or these ideas with your students.

    For example, for this session, you've read about the salt and iron debates. Why was the state monopoly on the production and sale of these items so contentious? Are there any items in today's world that the government insists on monopolizing? Why?

    The Peach Blossom Spring was written after the fall of the Han dynasty (in fact, two centuries later). What values does it convey?

    Here is a short YouTube version of the story with Chinese and English subtitles:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXgoHMnLDes

    Finally, here's a current story about the US, China and the Qin terracotta warriors:
    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/02/terra-cotta-warriors-philadelphia-museum-broken-thumb-spd/
     

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    #38996

    At first reading, I was unclear about what the point of this fable might be.  As I read it again, looking for what values this short story might convey, I began to look at the particular elements of the story to come up with a picture.  As with any literature, its historical context is key.  The fable itself is about a fisherman who seems to be idle, unoccupied by anything except wine.  He is carried upstream and finds this idylic land where people live peacefully and forever.  As this mythological place is the focal point of this fable, one can assume that the values conveyed in this piece are those found in that place:  a life of harmony with nature and with each other, a life where there is no war nor conflict.  It appears that the fable is expressing a nostalgia for better times,a time of old, a time without war and where people can thrive.  I liked this fable and this would be easy to read with students.   In order to guide students in understanding this myth, providing historical context would be key through which students can understand this longing for a better place and time.  In order to use this fable with my students, I would need to better understand this context. 

    #38998

    I found the contingency between the private markets and the even distribution of wealth described here quite interesting and somehow relatable to how wealth is distributed in some countries where commodities are still a big part of the economy these days. The distrust for the use that monopolies make of common wealth and their questionable interest in the greater good is obvious in the words of the learned men. I also like the way they question the benefits that come from the exploitation of iron, salt, liquor, etc and how their debate between distribution of wealth versus urgency of need. I also like their focus on native honesty versus selfishness. I think even in a global and capitalist market like we are today, it's important that modern societies can make their markets competitive and thrilling but from a honest point of view. I don't think loopholes, lobbies, and unethical stratigies benefit a society in the long run. Finally I also find the rebuttal of not having enough tools available for the mechanization and distribution of food to an underfed society quite interesting. I can really see myself using this debate and their approaches when teaching any debate or argumentative unit. 

    #39000
    clay dube
    Spectator

    Thanks for a lively debate! I've attached the philosophy presentation below. Please feel free to use it with your students. Please don't post it to the net or otherwise share it.

    Confucians
    Kuang, Lin
    Laureano, Betty
    Liebana-Mena, Juan
    Soltero-Torres, Sandra
    Tennyson-Marsh, Karimah
     

    Daoists
    Abraham, Brandon
    Flores, Genaro
    Kwon, Yun
    Ortiz, Percy
    Xu, Christine

    Mohists
    Fortson (Kohn), Tanish
    Goin, Caroline
    Mercado, Jacqueline
    Walker, Nicole

    Legalists
    Becker, Alexandra
    Jamshidnejad, Donna
    Tam, Jonathan
    *Gonzales, Laura
    *Reyes-Contreras, Liliana
    *Castro, Stella

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    #39004
    Lin Kuang
    Spectator

    I grew up in the theory of confucians great impact on my behaviors, characters, personality, and my personal value. I was told the benevolance, titual, politnss, and virtues as the best person. "When I walk along with two others, they may serve me as my teachers, I will select their good qualities and follow them, their bad qualities and aviod them" actually guided me to the right directions as I headed towards with my destination becasue I believe now matter how great or successful we are, we always find the better ones to learn from just like when you climb to the top of the mountain, you will find every other mountains will all under your control. As Confucius abserved, " the ruler of a kingdom or headof a family does not worry about his people's being poor, only about their being unevenly distributed. He does not worry about their being few, only about their being dissatisfied" demonstes the essence of our governing rules. The way we govern our country as leaders adopted the Confucian phylosophy to understand that we haver to serve our people, which is "from the people, by th epeople, and for the people' .

    #39005

    I had no idea that "China" was not even close to the word used by the people of China to refer to their country.  I find it fascinating that I have never heard this fact before today.  I know that many countries ave a variation in the name they use locally, but usually it is not so far from it.  I really enjoy learning how to check my Euro-centric learning and realizing how isolationist The United States can be in the way we teach history.

    #39017
    clay dube
    Spectator

    Hi Folks,
    Remember that you need to comment in the forum on the problem that we ended our debate with:
    Your father violated a law. He knew he was breaking the law, but he did so anyway. You know he broke the law. What should you, based on the teachings of your school of thought (Confucian, Mohist, Daoist, Legalist), do?

    Please tell us what you should do and why. Bonus credit if you can cite passages out of the original sources to support your argument (use that guide to Chinese philosophy).

    #39018
    Genaro Flores
    Spectator

    Monday’s session was very interesting as well as the previous one. We talk about the four main philosophical schools

    of thought in Asia (China).

    At that moment, I didn’t have access to the readings, we were engaged in finding and comparing the similarities and opposites of those four schools of thought.

     3rd.

    In class, we were expose to four schools of thought and one of them was Confucius, Confucians did not approve fully how the empire was running their business. Also, They used to believed greed corrupted officials from top to bottom, such that they posted controls areas to ensure a fair distributions of goods, even though, equality was not achieve in the system.

    The reason, Confucians did not want merchants to become official was because they could control goods and make an unthinkable profit. Instead, they emphasized benevolence. Also they believed that

    focusing on profit, they will deviate from pursuing honesty and give ways to greed, as a result, the system of equable be vanished. Previous generations believe on virtue and when it is discarded reliance will be put on other things.

    #39020
    Christine Xu
    Spectator

    Classic of filial piety in China is a good topic to teach about Chinese culture.

    According to the reading “ The classic of filial piety”, the family has always been considered by Chinese as the fundamental unit of their society. Filial piety had been praised by Confucius, and thinkers of all schools took for granted that a well-run family was one in which parents looked out for the interests of their children and children obeyed their parents and supported them in their old age. It is true. Filial piety was a central value in traditional Chinese culture. Parents gave life to children, gave them food and clothes, and education etc. For all the things that children received from parents, children have an eternal obligation towards them. They have a debt to their parents, a debt that can never be fully repaid. The only thing that children can do in order to repay at least a small part of this debt, is to take care of their parents in their old age (children are like an old -age insurance to parents), to make them proud and happy, to obey and serve them. 

    In  early China, besides expressing love or care, the presentation of food or by extension material support, create obligation. If one feeds a man, he is obligated to repay your kindness. This sense of obligation was so strong. This could be used as a means to control others. In the same way, a child is obligated to repay his parents for the food and care they provide his as a helpless child. For many Chinese or Taiwanese, love is not expressed with words, and it is not simply a matter of feeling. Love is shown and displayed trough material care. Chinese parents and children are not so much interested in sharing their emotions through, for example, hugs or words. Filial piety and parental care are shown by ‘feeding’ someone, ‘providing’ for someone, or performing ritualistic acts. This rule applies to many kinds of familial relationships.

    In the film “ Eat Drink Man Woman” directed by An Lee, he tells the story of a patriarchal Taiwanese family. The father is one of the most famous cooks in Taipei. Every day he prepares sumptuous meals for his three daughters. They have to eat together because that’s what their father desires. But they barely talk with each other, and behind the curtain of family harmony and love, which are shown through the performance of ritualistic acts such as the common meals, there are problems and contradictions that will come to the surface in the course of the film. The visual emphasis placed on the delicious food cooked by the father is a brilliant symbol of the concept of yang, which at the same time represents love, parental power, and filial obligation. This film shows responsibility is mainly regarded as ‘providing’ for someone, rather than as caring about each other’s feelings. 

    BTW, this is a good film. I am going to use this film in my classroom to teach Chinese culture and philosophy.  

     

     

    Sources: The Greater China Journal/ The Classic of Filial Piety

    #39023
    Christine Xu
    Spectator

    My father violated a law, according to Daoism, I would follow the law and treat my father the same as to other people. 

    Daoist rules cover both ethics, i.e., the personal values of the individual, and morality, the communal norms and social values of the organization. 

    In practice Taoism disapproves of killing, stealing, lying and promiscuity, and promotes altruistic, helpful and kindly behavior.Taoists believe such good behavior is an essential part not only of self-improvement but of improving the world as a whole.

    “ Cultivate the Tao within oneself; and one’s virtue will be perfected. Cultivate it within the household, and one’s virtue will be abundant. Cultivate it within the neighborhood, and one’s virtue will be enduring. cultivate it within the nation, and one’s virtue will be overflowing. Cultivate it with the entire world, and one’s virtue will be universal” .

     

    Sources: Tao Te Ching 54/ BBC: Taoist ethics

    #39024

    My father has broken the law..now what am I to do?   As a Mohist, I would approach this situation with reason, logical arguments and cannot let any emotional ties, even to my beloved father, cloud my judgment.  Because I reject the rituals central to Confucianism, it is not particularly surprising that a fellow human being, with all their flaws, has broken the law.  This act is not a source of great revelation but I firmly believe all crimes must be punished for the greater good of all.  Because I reject the centrality of the family, I would be forced to treat my father as I would any other criminal and not deal with him with any bias, partiality or preference.  I am to treat all people equally, even if that person is my beloved father.  I would not let any emotional ties compromise my judgment and commitment to the law and high moral standard.  I would be forced to turn my father in for the interest of the public good, despite my personal feelings for him.  It is my belief that all crimes must be brought to justice in order to prevent future crimes and preserve order and the public good at the expense of my personal love for my father.  Giving up what is most dearest to me for the interest of the public good would be the highest morality expressed.

    #39026
    Lin Kuang
    Spectator

    Christine, you are absolutely right on Chinese filial piety and obligations which was inheriated from our ancestors for generations, but the way the fathers rule the family and have absolute power created tragedies historically, from the Love of the Butter Flies, The Red Chamber of Dreams,and so on. Many of them suffered the supreme power of the rules and rituals and became victims of it. The restricted rules left us Chinese no freedom of speech, pursuing hapiness and love, even humanity. It might be they ways we maintain the social orders of the community, not the way we enjoy the freedom as individuals. That's why when we implemented " Open-Door Policy in early 1980s, Chinese were stunned about the amzing world outside and greedly absorbed all what could no matter how in every fields. The brave Chinese settled down all over the world to explore the differences they have never experienced before forgetting their traditions and culture. Majority of the Chinese visited the DremaLand of America, they chose to stay here in various ways to continue bathing in this freeland with their culture leaving our parents and siblings behind...
     

    #39028
    clay dube
    Spectator

    I agree with Christine about Eat Drink Man Woman. Fantastic film by Ang Lee.
    Here's the opening segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-2QBYKI8LU

    A remake of the film is set in Los Angeles. The trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUh3jY62xGk

    #39029

    I found the debate between “The Learned Men and The Minister” to be very interesting. I found that while the Learned Men did have strong points and as well in line with their Confucian beliefs, the Minister’s arguments and rebuttals against them were more than practical. The Minister’s reasons behind enacting the Salt and Iron monopolies and the liquor tax made actual sense. The country was in the middle of a war and the money had to come from somewhere. I can imagine that with the creation of the monopolies and the taxes, among other endeavors, that the population was experiencing a financial boom and would want to protect their investments, hence the need for military protection. The Learned Men, while sticking to their ideals, didn’t see the big picture and what government is really about. The belief by “The Learned Men” that the people will follow the rulers willingly if the rulers just set a good example was tone deaf to the Minister’s arguments. It was if the two were having different conversations because the Learned Men just didn’t seem to truly hear the Minister’s position on why he created the Salt & Iron monopolies, and were so stuck to their beliefs that just were not practical in a real world sense. This debate made me really rethink my position on Confucian thought and theory. Some of Confucian belief makes a lot of sense, like being a good person and people will follow you, but I think it often doesn’t take in consideration human being’s participation in the real world. 

    #39030

    As a student of Confucian philosophy I am conflicted because I believe wholly in filial piety and therefore I must follow my father as is expected. However, my father has willingly committed a crime and therefore did not follow the rule of law. Just as I am to follow my father, my father must also follow the rule of law. It is because of this transgression I will not support my father in his actions and will not pay filial piety to him After all, our teacher Confucius stated, “If a person is right, his wishes will be carried out without explicit orders. If a person is not right, people will not follow him even if he orders them.” As my father is not right by breaking the law, I am not obligated to follow him. My decision is within Confucian theory, so my conscience is clear. 

    Source: Chinese Philosophy Reading

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