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Home › Forums › Core Seminars › East Asia Origins to 1800, Spring 2019 › Session #3 - March 4, Clay Dube
Dennis O'Connell.
cgaoThe readings for session 3 focus on China's early empire.
For each of the readings and for each of our discussions, please identify the points you found most interesting. Please discuss how you could use these materials or these ideas with your students.
For example, for this session, you've read about the salt and iron debates. Why was the state monopoly on the production and sale of these items so contentious? Are there any items in today's world that the government insists on monopolizing? Why?
The Peach Blossom Spring was written after the fall of the Han dynasty (in fact, two centuries later). What values does it convey?
Here is a short YouTube version of the story with Chinese and English subtitles.
Finally, here's a current story about the US, China and the Qin terracotta warriors.
Marcos Ricoshort video about Terracotta warriors. I remember watching a great documentary about the Terracotta Army a while back, but cannot remember who produced it.
I wonder what was going on in Michael Rohana's head breaking a piece from an ancient priceless figure(I stand corrected, valued at 4.5 million dollars) and taking that terracotta thumb home. He now faces up to 30 years in jail, and a heavy fine. I searched for any updates on this case but could not find any relevant information. Rightfully, China is asking for a severe punishment, but 30 years...ouch.
https://www.shine.cn/viral/1804082782/
Somehow many people act without thinking of the consequences, another horrible example are Utah's goblin topplers, Glenn Tuck Taylor and David Benjamin Hall (makes me even more upset because they were Scout leaders). This guys decided to topple an ancient rock formation because they claim that it was dangerous and record it on video. The video was later uploaded to youtube.
https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=57695025&itype=CMSID
Two horrible examples of fellow United States citizens acting without any respet to culture or the environment. These people give the rest of us a bad reputation 🙁 I had reviewed the Utah case with my students and Scouts, to think about the consequences of your actions and "leave no trace" principles. Now I have another bad example to use, and to help educate some young minds.
Scott CraigI found this article very interesting. In the past, when I've studied filial piety the emphasis has been on the son or person of lower status to obey and be respectful of the person who is in a higher status. What I really liked about this article is that it also emphasized the importance of the person who is of the higher status to treat those under them with kindness and respect. It repeatedly emphasized the importance to love one another. It warns that Lords and ministers need to be respectful of the subordinates and not give them cause to complain or rebel.
Scott CraigThank you for sharing those links. I love the explanation of the Terracotta Warriors. That would be great to show students and then have a slide show of the real terracotta warriors. I also love the other articles. In history we are always challenged to make connections between the past and the present. Those articles are great examples of doing just that. Thank yo.
Scott CraigI found this article very fascinating. It's interesting to see the various crimes and their punishments. As the father of a child who was born with birth defects I was saddened to see that the law against killing a child did not apply to killing "a deformed or abnormal newborn." Although that belief is consistent with many other civilizations ancient and modern.
I also found it interesting that in certain cases a person could obtain the release of a family member and that commoners could have their slaves, horse, or ox work off the debt for them.
This would be a fun article to use in comparing legal systems. Compare this with Hammurabi's code, or other legal systems.
Dan ThalkarI found the article on Qin Dynasty Penal Servitude to be particularly fascinating. It was extremely specific, and the excemptions for birth defects, size, and gender are all illustrative of what was valued in society at the time. I would be interested in comparing this text with other legal codes, both contemprary and ancient, such as Hammurabi's Code.
Another connection could be drawn between the Penal Codes and the article on the terracotta warriors. A worker who stole one of the warrior's heads in the 1980s was executed. How have things changed or stayed the same since the Qin Dynasty?
Dan ThalkarHi Scott,
I agree. The mutual & vertical responsibility is a noticeably important feature of the text. It would be interesting to review it with students, have them predict whether they think this is a realistic (or desirable situation), and then, during continued study of the unit, have students return to the analysis to collect examples & nonexamples of filial piety in action.
Brenda-Jean ShephardIf I turn my father in for his action, so that he is punished, I will establish my commitment to the ultimate authority to the law, and the ruler will know that I am qualified for promotion to a post as one of his ministers. Then I wlll do my best to keep a low profile and be forgotten! Because in spite of my proof of loyalty, the ruler will not trust me and will eventually get rid of me anyway.
The more I think about it, I realize I should just keep my head down and not bring attention to myself by turning in my dad - even though according to my legalist philosophy, the guilty criminal needs to be punished.
This all assumes, of course, that I am a man. As a woman I would have no credibility in the first place.
Amy ChenI am a poor merchant woman and recently found out my father broke a law. He knows he broke a law as well. My father will be judged by Heaven and universal love. The well skilled judge and makers of law will decide my father's fate. They will look at his crime from all aspects and give him the most fair sentence.
Brenda-Jean ShephardGood idea to compare/contrast with other (barbaric) ancient civilizations. Apparently we are going to include Socrates and the Buddha too.
Christine MoguelMy father broke a law - of a rule that he knew existed. I witnessed my father breaking the law. Philisophically and as a Mohist, If my father broke a rule, I would feel very dissapointed in him. I would try to adopt the idea that we all learn from our mistakes. My father is a Mohist and he would take his mistake and possibly teach others about the pit falls of his mistake- in short, have others beneifit from his mistake. We Mohists truely believe all indivuduals possess the ability to reflect, repent, and use their mistake as an example to teach others about right and wrong choices. It is through this reflection, repenting, and admission to fault in front of the community at large- that we are able to gain a respect again for my father. I am proud of him. I am proud of his ability to adhere to our true nature and make a right out of a wrong for all.
Marcos RicoI am a farmer in small village. I love my father, but I must love my community more. He knew the law, but decided to be selfish and broke it anyway. I witness him breaking the law. My love for my community must come first. We have our rules for the benefit of our community. We must avoid wastefulness to reach harmony and wealth for all.
I must love everyone in my community and tell our judge that my father broke the law. The wise judge will provide a fair and loving consequence that will promote harmony and avoid wastefulness.
Linda Gonzales DiazMy father knew the law and he chose to break it. As a Mohist, I believe that I cannot allow my father to have an advantage over other people in my society because that is the beginning of disorder and chaos that can potentially upset the harmony. I see his transgression against the law the same as if someone had transgressed against my family. I would not allow it and therefore must let the ruler know of his error. Believing in universal love, I know that the judgment of my father will be done in a fair and loving way. His punishment will most likely be restorative in nature as imprisonment or death would be seen as a waste of a human life. We do not like waste.
Kim LengWhat are rules but something that society has made up in order to be more civilized in an attempt to gain law and order? My father may have broken what you call a rule, but what are rules? Rules are just clever writings and conventions made by men that create more problems than solutions. As long as my father is content and living in harmony, all is well. Now leave us to mediate on the dao.
Gerlinde GoschiI have to obey the law and realize that the law applies to all, including my own father. Although I love him, it is scary to think about what would happen to me if I would not tell anyone and if he got caught. As his son, it will be my duty to carry on and take care of the family. I am strong and can work the land to provide. Now I understand what the state means when it asserts that human nature is basically selfish. My father was selfish when he didn't follow the law and he deserves to be punished. He didn't think of his family and what his crime would mean to them. I have to turn him in and report him to the authorities! I have to do this, so I will not be like him! I will follow the law.