Home Forums Core Seminars East Asia Origins to 1800, Spring 2020 Session 8 - May 2 afternoon (dube - ming and qing dynasties)

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  • #7731
    cgao
    Spectator

     

     

    Please read the following materials. Please go ahead and comment on the ideas included in the materials and brainstorm on possible uses of the materials.

    MING DYNASTY

    Zheng He - outline of the aims and impact of the early 15th century voyages, together with recommended classroom activities (Columbia AFE ; Univ. of Tennessee, Chattanooga)

    Three primary source documents:
    Hongwu emperor proclamations, pdf below
    Ming-era commercial activities, pdf below
    Ming-era land contracts/landlord-tenant relations, pdf below

    And - a local discovery at the Huntington - Yongle Encyclopedia, pdf below

    Please note that in the Ming dynasty video lecture, there are two places where I've asked you to pause the video and comment.

    The first asks you to identify the values and priorities in the proclamations reading attached here and two placards introduced in the video. The second notes that China opened a bit to outsiders (Jesuit scientists) at just the time that the Tokugawa were closing most of Japan down (ca. 1600). What benefits might come from being open? What costs might be incurred?

    We can talk about this and more in our discussion on Saturday, May 2.

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    #43124
    clay dube
    Spectator

     

     

    Hi Everyone,
    Week look forward to seeing everyone on Saturday, May 2. In the meantime, please dive into these primary source materials to help us understand some key issues in the Qing dynasty. This Manchu-governed dynasty lasted from 1644 to 1911, but our course concludes at 1800. So the Qing we're looking at is "high" Qing, meaning it was the largest and most advanced empire of its day (though by 1800, Britain was adding India to its empire, having just lost the thirteen American colonies). Still, by 1800, the problems the Qing would face were increasingly evident.

    One of those problems was an assertive West. In addition to the pdfs below, please read this letter from the Qianlong emperor to King George III of the United Kingdom: https://china.usc.edu/emperor-qianlong-letter-george-iii-1793.

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    #43160
    Cynthia Stults
    Spectator

    If I were to summarize what this first emperor of the Ming Dynasty valued, I would call it anticorruption and integrity. In his proclamations, he expects officials to be above reproach and inflicts harsh punishments (even death penalty) upon those who are found guilty of accepting bribes or abusing their position. He is also angered by those who lie about their misdeeds. By pointing out his own crimes (taking the concubine of a conquered foe), he sets an example of integrity. He also values small government that is focused on serving the people. He dislikes that so many are idle by giving themselves made up titles instead of being productive citizens like the farmers. He was also angry that these made up positions put more distance between commoners and those officials with real power. I suspect this comes from his underpriviledged upbringing, during which he likely witnessed and was the victim of such corruption.

    #43164
    Meghann Seril
    Spectator

    The placards and proclamations remind me very much of the legalist school of thought. I was particularly struck by the line "when a good person mistakenly violates the law, he is going to be punished." It reminds me of your question two sessions back about how representatives of each school of thought would deal with their own parents breaking an important law. It seems no one can escape punishment. His proclamation on the dismissal of excessive local staff further illustrates his belief that people are motivated by fear and greed so enforcement of laws must be consistent and punishment must be severe. It reminds me of some of the rhetoric used by President Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines when talking about how he will deal with the drug crisis in the country.

    #43165
    Alma Ochoa
    Spectator

    Cynthia, I totally agree with your summary and as a math teacher I definitely could not have been able to summarize any better than you.  The emperor’s ethical and moral values are something to strive for and certainly a breath of fresh air especially right now with everything going on in our nation.

    #43167
    Cynthia Stults
    Spectator

    There are many benefits to being open as a country. If you are open to foreigners, they can introduce advancements in technology and science, bring new, desirable trade goods to the country, and bring fresh ideas that might help to solve issues inherent within the country. The risks of being open are that you risk losing part or even all of your identity. I once hear a nation defined as: borders, language, and culture. If too many foreign ideas are brought in and assimilated, then your culture, politics, ideology, and possibly language could be changed, and then a nation is no longer how it used to define itself. Some would welcome that in the name of progress, some might value their roots and traditions more.

    #43169
    Sandra Flores
    Spectator

    It seems that China's history is very contradicting.  I keep thinking of Confucianism and how family is the based of society, but according to placard #7"if an elder commits a crime, all elders and lijia shall hold a meeting and inquire into the facts.." Although the consequences of commiting a crime are not deadly, I found it surprising how the elders, will also have to go through "trial". On the other hand, placard #16, states that elders are role models and that every adult must work.  

    #43170

    The proclamations and placards instantly reminded me of the legalists. There are laws to abide by and if you break those laws or rules, you will be punished accordingly, no matter who you are. This reminded me of the discussion we had based on the schools of thought. If your family broke a rule, how would you react?  I love how the proclamation begins, "To all civil and military officials: I have told you to refrain from evil". He expresses that many people who are accused of commiting crimes are often trying to bribe their way out of it, and he goes back to what he has said all along... " I warned you not to do it". I agree with his sentiment that rules are meant to be followed to keep all citizens safe, especially when you are told about them. If you don't follow these rules there should be harsh consequences so that the citizens know there are repercussions for your actions. 

    #43172

    I couldn't agree with you more. It's refreshing to read about rulers who value integrity and upholding laws meant to keep people safe. By pointing out his own crimes it's almost a humbling experience. Allowing others to identify with him and see that he understands the value of upholding laws. 

    #43181
    Meghann Seril
    Spectator

    It seems, in his letter to King George III, that Emperor Qianlong was aware of both the positive effects and negative consequences of opening up China to other countries. He is rightfully concerned about the requests made by King George to add an envoy to his court and that it should not provide King George with an advantage. I did find it quite diplomatic that he gave King George an out by possibly laying blame for these "unreasonable requests" on the envoy. Emperor Qianlong is open to trade, as he repeatedly reminds King George of his generosity with different foreign countries, but does not want to be tricked and taken advantage of despite the opportunity open trade provides. He also raises concerns about land encroachment and the imposition of European religious idealogies, all justifiable concerns.

    #43182
    Billie Johnson
    Spectator

    Like others before me have noted, it sounds like he is exhausted with playing this game of cat and mouse with corrupt officials and those who abuse their posts. The emperor values accountability and discipline.  I don't mean discipline in the punitive sense, but maybe that too...however, I mean discipline in terms of using your power to help and not to take advantage of others.  Again, I agree with the others who mentioned that his philosophical believes may stem from him experiencing both worlds which is so often the case for people who have had to earn their success and not have it handed to them. The same issues that plagued the government so long ago can still be found in many government institutions from the local level all the way up.  How in the world can you draw out all of the corruption and right the ship?  

    #43183
    Brigid Schmidt
    Spectator

    When reading the Proclamations of the Hongwu Emperor and the placards I also thought of the legalists. Like the legalists, the emperor wanted the laws and rules to be followed by everyone, no matter their position. His proclamation made it clear that there are immediate and harsh consequences (including death) for those who break the rules or lie. He says there are no exceptions. However, he brings up a time that he conquered the city of Wuchang and took over the city as well as Chen's concubine. He questioned if that was wrong to take a woman improperly and so he gave up women and music and valuable objects. He wanted his people to see that if he can do away with tempting things, they should be able to also! He warns them to "be cautious!" On the other hand, placard #7 at least states they will inquire the facts first before they make judgment. Overall, the values of obedience and keeping people in line are what I see coming out of both this document and the placards. 

    #43184
    Billie Johnson
    Spectator

    As we discussed in a separate forum, a few benefits to being open is the transfer and exchange of technology, ideas, systems of efficiency, opportunities to monetize goods.  I suppose the question is do the benefits outweigh the risks.  I would imagine that a real risk of being open is the exchange of ideals and spread of a religious ideology that does not align with the ideals or agenda of the host country.  Who knows what the motives might be for all of the opportunities above, so I am certain these opportunities were met with skepticism.

    #43190
    Mario Ruiz
    Spectator

    When asked to identify the values of the proclamations of the Hongwu Emperor, I would definitely say it is "honor" and "integrity". I would choose these two values because after reading and hearing about the justice system they had in place, they appear to have the "innocent until proven guilty" mentatlity. When someone commited a serious crime, they were not immediately punished or reprimanded. Instead, an inquiry took place and even an interrogation could not take place without proper authority. 

    #43192

    There are many different advantages and disadvantages to this debate. There are many benefits to being an open country. Some of those benefits include the transfer and trading of goods, introduction to new technological advancements which could lead to a stronger economy. However, the risks seem to far outway the benefits. The risks include potential seizure of land and people, spread of other idealogies and religions, new cultural norms, new languages, and as Clay discussed today, I think the most imprortant, risk of military technologies. 

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