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Home › Forums › Core Seminars › East Asia since 1800, Fall 2022 › session 4 (9/26) China's long 19th century
Molly Cowan Johnson.
clay dube19th Century China
This session looks at China's long 19th century. The first lecture focuses on internal and external challenges to the Manchu-dominated status quo. It covers the period 1800-1875 and many themes including
a) the difference between economic growth (China had a lot of that) and economic development (there was not enough of that)
b) the interplay between domestic problems and outside threats (Opium War, Taiping Civil War, Arrow War)
c) efforts undertaken by the Manchus and local elites to address perceived threats
Required readings for the first lecture
China: Fall of the Qing & the Early Republic
The second lecture looks at the last 40 or so years of the Manchu Qing dynasty and the first 15 years of the Republican era (1875-1924). The themes examined include:
a) efforts to strengthen and reform China's technological base and state institutions, including the influence of those with foreign experiences
b) the shock of war with a modernizing Japan and backlash against reformers
c) how China backed into creating a Republic, the first in Asia
d) the fragmentation of China under warlords, continued abuse by outside powers and the creation of rival political parties
For the second lecture and our discussion session, please prepare to take one side in the "encounter" described in the attached file, "To Save China." Plan to be a self-strengthener, a reformer or a revolutionary.
Recommended readings
The above readings will be helpful in preparing for our encounter. You are NOT expected to read all of them, but you may wish to read the readings on "the side" you are taking. And you may wish to scan the readings for your opponents. Please feel free to highlight aspects from any of these readings in the forum.
OPTIONAL resources:
clay dubeHi Everyone -
Please let us know ([email protected]/[email protected]) if you haven't signed up for our historical encounter on Monday, 9/26 (5 pm Pacific). Each person will be a self-strenthener, reformer or revolutionary for our discussion about 1) why is the Qing empire vulnerable to internal disorder and threats from abroad? 2) what should we do about it? what should change? Useful readings are available in the post above.
From the handout:
The Qing Empire and its peoples face critical choices. Foreign powers have invaded, forcing us to permit them to live amongst us along our coast, promoting their beliefs, sullying our empire. Rebellions have raged in different places, driven by different forces but always challenging Qing rule and producing instability. How are we to cope? What can and should be done?
For the purposes of this discussion, we’ll compress the period 1860-1910 and bring together groups that arose in different places and situations to discuss how to deal with the external and internal threats. What are the most pressing issues? How can they be dealt with? What changes are needed to ensure survival? Ci Xi, the Empress Dowager (Tz’u Hsi 慈禧, 1835-1908) will preside over the discussion. Three groups will participate, each with their own assessement of our challenges and how best to cope with them.
Leaders of the groups:
Li Hongzhang (Li Hung-chang 李鴻章, 1823-1901)
Kang Youwei (K’ang Yu-wei 康有為, 1858-1927)
Qiu Jin (Ch’iu Chin 秋瑾, 1875-1907)
Members of the groups should examine the ideas and actions of the “self-strengtheners,” “reformers,” and “rebels.” Each person needs to invent her own past and social place and to argue from those experiences and positions. Some may wish to channel other prominent figures from the three camps (e.g., Zeng Guofan, Yung Wing (Rong Hong), Zuo Zongtang, Liang Qichao, Tan Sitong, Sun Yat-sen, Huang Xing, and Song Jiaoren).
Already signed up:
Self-Strengtheners
Harry Dauer
Robert Parker
Denis Vovchenko
Reformers
Shurong Tu
Tongya Jia
Revolutionaries
Molly Cowan
Carlos Pizarro
Ramabadran Sudarshan
Denis VovchenkoExplain to students the econ growth vs. development dilemma - Tough task – I would try to remind the students of the debate raging in the US now. Although there is economic growth before and “after” COVID, one could argue that there is no “development” – the economy continues to deindustrialize and to privilege “the service sector.” There seems to be an emerging bi-partisan consensus about the need to “build back better.”
Denis VovchenkoIt is clearly an admission of defeat – the most humiliating part would be the privilege to set up extraterritorial settlements and neighborhoods. The compensation part is not unusual – the defeated European powers were also required to do the same (like France after the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-1871 or Germany after WWI). Another example of European usage is calling fellow monarchs as “my brother.”
Denis VovchenkoAs far as I know, opium sale and consumption were legal in the West at the time, right?
Denis VovchenkoIn regards to the anti-Manchu sentiment of the Taiping Rebellion, how developed was the Han nationalist consciousness in the mid-1800s? Just intellectuals? The illiterate peasants couldn’t understand spoken dialects other than their own, right? I can understand the anti-Western sentiment of the Boxer Rebellion a little easier although it is a remarkable change from the Taiping rebels’ pro-Western stance.
Denis Vovchenko“55 Days at Peking” (1963) on the siege of the Western quarter by the Boxers with Charlton Heston.
Add-on “55 Days at Peking” (1963) on the siege of the Western quarter by the Boxers with Charlton Heston.
Denis VovchenkoClay's question - How do you help your students understand the psychological impact of 1895 defeat?
I would use an analogy from American history – the War of 1812. There was more interest for it in the aftermath of the January 6 takeover of the Congress (which reminded of the British counterattack and the burning of D.C. in August 1814). From my limited knowledge, the young American republic attacked British Canada to liberate Anglo-Canadians from the imperial yoke. After several humiliating setbacks, the US agreed to the status quo ante 3 years later. As Clay said in the video, the Japanese were seen as little brothers. Similarly, the Anglo-Canadians were also perceived as such in need of guidance and salvation. The Vietnam War may be another analogy to convey the Chinese experience of the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-5.
Denis VovchenkoAs I understood from the video 2 segment, the New Culture Movement was similar to the folklore collection stage of many European ethnocentric nationalist movements (Germany, Russia, and smaller subject nationalities in Austria and Russia). They were largely apolitical, at least, outwardly. Typically, a small coterie of intellectuals shedding hegemonic religious and dynastic identities (from being a good Habsburg subject to discovering one’s roots and the soul of the “people.”
As for the May 4 movement, they can be compared to the next stage of nationalist evolution in European – politicization by a slightly larger group of intellectuals (students) inspired by the more innocuous folklore collectors. The international context was also key – the victorious Allies proclaimed throughout WWI that they were fighting against conservative monarchies (Germany and Austria-Hungary) for freedom, democracy, and, of course, “the war to end all wars.” So it made sense for nationalistic Chinese students to make use of the Allies’ rhetoric.
Denis Vovchenko
Denis VovchenkoClay: Why did both the Nationalists and the Communists adopt the Leninist model?
This question seems connected to the May 4 question. From my limited knowledge of that context, the failure of the May 4 1919 to gain support from the cynical Entente Allies discredited the liberal Western model. The only successful alternative was the Bolshevik government that had just won a civil war against its domestic opponents and their Western sponsors. Marxism-Leninism had long denounced Western democracies as greedy imperialists. Plus, as Clay mentioned, Moscow generously trained and funded not just fledgling CPC but even the Nationalist cadres. What do you think?
Ramabadran SudarshanIn the first video Clay referred how French armies joined the Manchu army to defeat the Taiping rebellion? Can he spell out how did the then French army enter the scene? Yes, an illustration was shown as to how the French and the British are vying for the Chinese but a bit more specific will be helpful
Ramabadran SudarshanReading the nanjing treaty: Want to know if China has sought any reparation from Britain considering its Chinese empire where some of them were insolvent, were made to pay.
This comes in the backdrop of today's China sending delegations to the west to bring back aspects of civilisational history from that period.
clay dubeThe 19th century battles were complicated. British and French forces combined to destroy Yuanmingyuan, near Beijing. The astonishing palace where Qing rulers spent more time than the Forbidden City. That was the culmination of fighting that started four years before and which should have ended with the 1858 Treaty of Tianjin. But the foreigners collided again, issued ultimatiums, and invaded again in 1859 and 1860. A year later, French and British forces used artillery to win the Battle of Shanghai against the Taiping. Before that British and American individuals played roles helping fight the Taiping. The Qing also benefitted from ships leased from the British.
Ramabadran SudarshanInteresting reading about Sun Yat Sen's sojourn. Based on some of my readings on him previously, his Revive China society's flag has some strong resemblances to the present day's Taiwanese national flag. In fact, I fondly remember visiting Taiwan, where his memorial hall is located(attracts a lot of tourists). The hall premises witnesses a wide range of historical details around Sun's life. Here is where I learnt his three principles of nationalism, people and principles as foundations for reinventing China after the fall of the Qing empire.