Home Forums Core Seminars East Asia Origins to 1800, Spring 2023 Session 3 (February 27) - Cosmopolitan China

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  • #9042
    Crystal Hsia
    Keymaster

    Song and Yuan

     

    For this session, let's catch up a bit. Please look back at the Qin through Tang lecture and readings (221 bce-907 ce). Then, please look at our readings here for the Song through the Yuan dynasties (960-1368). Much of what we describe as "the late empire" begins to take shape during the Song period (neo-Confucianism, civil service exams). The Yuan period was one of Mongol rule, not the first time for nomads to conquer large parts of what we call China, but it represented an extended period and the Mongols, of course, took control of much of the Eurasian land mass during this period.

    Texts and Images:

    • De Bary, et al, Sources of Chinese Tradition, The new laws of Wang Anshi (skim this)
    • AFE, Wang Anshi's crop loans (this is a lesson created from one of the readings included in the Wang Anshi section)
    • (In 1972, Mao Zedong quoted Wang Anshi during a meeting with Japanese prime minister TANAKA Kakuei:Chairman Mao: I also used three sayings of Song dynasty [statesman] Wang Anshi to rebut my teacher. He said: “There is no need to fear astronomical events [omens]. One should not stubbornly cling on to the rules of ancestors. There is no need to worry about the opinions of others.” There were plenty of people criticizing him at the time.
    • Ebrey, Zhu Xi Disciples (the teachings of Zhu Xi and others of the era get labelled as neo-Confucian by later scholars who want to distinquish them from those of the early Confucians)
    • Ebrey, Attractions of the Capital (a description of the capital of Hangzhou, during Southern Song dynasty)
    • AFE, Marco Polo in CathayPlease look at these five objects. What do they suggest about the Yuan dynasty and Mongol rule?

    1. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/39624?pos=2
    2. "Southern Song" style painting from the early Yuan dyansty: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/40086?pos=1
    3. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/72769?pos=2
    4. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/40303?pos=1
    5. (about other areas ruled by the Mongols) https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/449000?pos=1

     

    Optional:
    Metropolitan Museum, Art in the Yuan 

    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/metpublications/The_World_of_Khubilai_Khan_Chinese_Art_in_the_Yuan_Dynasty

    Please look at some of the objects in the collection. You may wish to download (for free), the full catalog. Sun's chapter (pages 41-64 and available below) introduces the the Mongol capital. Another excellent exhibition and catalog is at: 

    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/metpublications/The_Legacy_of_Genghis_Khan_Courtly_Art_and_Culture_in_Western_Asia_1256_1353

    Optional:
    Resource guide for teachers from LA County Museum of Art version of the Met exhibition above.
    https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/12213627/the-legacy-of-genghis-khan-los-angeles-county-museum-of-art

    Optional:
    Please examine the Japanese scrolls documenting Mongol-era efforts to invade Japan, this website shows how representations changed from the 13th to the 21st centuries. The site is a bit confusing, click on a century and then use the left arrow to see the scroll fragments.
    http://digital.princeton.edu/annotatedscrolls/
     

     

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    #47638
    Terri Vest
    Spectator
    1. Can you use historical debate in your class, or have you ever used it before? In what way? (We would love to learn from your experience or your ideas on how to implement this!) Yes, I have used historical debate for years as part of my unit on the US Civil War.  I think debate is an excellent way to show students the complexity of an issue since so many different viewpoints can be represented.  It's a very structured process since most of my students had not really engaged in debate before.  After they're assigned a side for the debate, the group generates topics and questions and divides the research.  I encourage them to discuss the opposition's stance to each topic so they are ready with rebuttal, which allows them multiple perspectives.  I bring in outside "judges" to determine a winning side for the debate, but students are graded individually for their contributions to the process including their written notes and conclusions.  The students enjoy the process and the debate itself, often becoming quite passionate about their topics.
    2. Scenario: You found out that your father has broken the law, and he knowingly broke this rule. What should you do? (Please respond from the perspective of your school - Confucianism, Daoism, Mohism, Legalism) As a Daoist, I would do nothing.  Laws are social constructs that may create problems rather than solve them.  I would allow my father to follow his own path and not interfere with the consequences.
    #47647
    Pooja Gupta
    Spectator

    I am struck by the major changes that occurred during the Qin through Tang and Song Yuan eras after reading the questions and researching the related information. Particularly during the Song era, which lasted from 960 to 1279 CE, neo-Confucianism flourished and civil service tests were instituted. These changes had a significant effect on Chinese society and influenced the formation of the "late empire," as it is now known. The development of neo-Confucianism, which emphasized the importance of self-cultivation and moral rectitude, was a key feature of the Song period. This philosophy had a significant impact on Chinese society and was instrumental in shaping the political and social institutions of the time. Moving on to the Yuan period, which was characterized by Mongol rule from 1271 to 1368 CE, we observe a different type of change. While the Mongols were not the first nomadic people to conquer large parts of China, their rule represented a period of foreign dominance in the country which was surprising to me.  I look forward to learning more about this fascinating and complex history in the weeks to come.

    #47677
    Isaac Esquivel
    Spectator

    I found it funny and somewhat suprising that Marco Polo's visit to China has become controversial as of late.  Up until that point, it had never crossed my mind that this was the case.  I hear about it so much in HS history that I simply took it as fact. This spotlights the fact that the who ever controls the narrative of events (or non-events, allegedly) are the ones that dictate what the dominant conversation around this topic is.

    This can translate into a classroom history class where students are taught to decipher and analyse the quality of research they do.  Were they weight primary vs. secondary sources and make critical choices about what evidence they should or should not accept.  In a lot of cases, it's not always what you find, but where that information came from.  This skill becomes ever-so important as students get older, but can and should begin at an early age.

    I remember studying fossils in 3rd grade where one of my studens enthusiastically said, "Mr. Esquivel, triceratops are real, there's a tic-toc on youtube," insinuating someone had brought them back. After facepalming and a quick sigh, I decided to have a discussion about certain resources we can rely on, and about things that may seem real/true, but are not. Even more dishonestly, sometimes what is put out there as fact or true, can be quite literally quite the opposite.

    #47682
    Sarah Lee-Park
    Spectator

    2/27 class


    1.     Can you use historical debate in your class, or have you ever used it before? In what way? (We would love to learn from your experience or your ideas on how to implement this!)


    Yes- as an English teacher, I often use historical debate or discussion in class. Using context from the historical time and understanding the socio-political issues and culture help with comprehending literature and also aids with application in contemporary issues and personal connections.  Although we might not agree with historical customs, having and understanding of their roots and purposes allow students to better understand content and also see how many of our current ideas and cultural norms developed.


    Students can find ways to connect to literary characters and to see from their perspective when they study historical events and social norms of the times. 



    2.     Scenario: You found out that your father has broken the law, and he knowingly broke this rule. What should you do? (Please respond from the perspective of your school - Confucianism, Daoism, Mohism, Legalism)


    As a Confucianist, I feel that protecting the honor of my elders is of foremost importance. Preventing discovery and perhaps shielding my father in law is my duty. If discovered, protecting my father in law from shame and punishment would be my goal. If compensation or restitution could be made, I would offer it and seek to prevent further wrongdoing by monitoring my father in law. As a woman, I would have little real power, but would use any influence and resources to aid my husband to keep his father from further wrongdoing. Although it is not my place to “teach” my elders, perhaps appealing to his duty as the head of the family to keep the name respectable might deter him from future defiance of the law. According to Confucianism, balance is important, so some sort of compensation would be required… another family member might be offered to suffer in his place.

    #47683

    What I found to be very interesting for this week's topic was how the feet-binding was reserved for the upper class and not for those who worked. This was something new to me as I had initially thought that this was a societal wide phenomenon. Another interesting concept presented was the thought that Marco Polo may have never gone to China afterall. In a world that has a lot of conspiracy theories that challenges everyday thoughts, this idea definitely had me thinking. 

    I have a lot of historical debates in my classes. As a history teacher, one of my main focus is harness their critical thinking skills and I have found debates to be one tool to do so. Something I have preached in my classes is how there is not definitive 'right' or 'wrong' answer so long as you have the evidence to substantiate your stance.  When we debate, each side must defend their stance or argument with substantial evidence. 

    As a Mohist, I would evaluate and analyze the extent to which my father had broken the law. I will look into who he may have affected and to which degree. From there, I will see what I can to do assist him in righting anything or anyone he may have wronged. Once we can put this incident behind us, I would do my very best to make sure my father is a better citizen who is able to express impatial care for all. 

    #47688
    Denis Vovchenko
    Spectator

    Have students compare Mongol rule of China and other areas. Were Mongol priorities different from Tang, Song, and Ming rulers? Was the Manchu approach different? What worked? What didn’t?

    The textbook I chose for my world history survey (Strayer-Nelson, Ways of the World, 5th edition) has a chapter on Mongol Eurasia with a big section comparing their control of Russia, Persia, and China.

    From my limited understanding, Tang and Mongol rulers were similar in their expansionist drive. Song and Ming dynasties were less interested in conquest especially into Central Asia. Characteristically, the Ming rulers focused on the defense of their northern areas fearing another Mongol invasion. The Manchus seem similar to the Mongols even more than the Tang. The Manchus also privileged themselves and borderland minorities like the Mongols and Xingjian Turks over the Han majority.  

     

    #47689
    Denis Vovchenko
    Spectator

    Asking students if it matters whether Marco Polo really visited China.

    I would try to guide the discussion in two directions – I would remind the students of the Prester John legend who was clearly legendary (although eventually identified by the Portuguese with the Ethiopian dynasty). Even if Marco Polo’s travels were just a collection of fairy tales, it would have had the same impact as it did inspiring Columbus among many other Europeans to head to Asia. On the other hand, I would present a history detective view. Proving Marco Polo right or exposing him as a fraud are legitimate avenues for real scholarly research (as Morris Rossabi has done).

     

    #47690
    Denis Vovchenko
    Spectator

     

    Hangzhou description mentioned various shops, I was curious about the “candy center” and the “wine chambers” – was candy sugar-based at that time (1200s)? Was wine just plum- and rice-based?

     

    #47692
    Todd Shattuck
    Spectator

    1. Can you use historical debate in your class, or have you ever used it before? In what way? (We would love to learn from your experience or your ideas on how to implement this!)

    At this point I have yet to use this. As a science teacher there are plenty of the things we have learned over time that dramatically change.

    John Snow vs ___ for the development of epidemiology (resources 1. Snow PBS and 2. CDC epidemiology ) or Galileo vs Copernicus

    2. Scenario: You found out that your father has broken the law, and he knowingly broke this rule. What should you do? (Please respond from the perspective of your school - Confucianism, Daoism, Mohism, Legalism)

    As a Legalist, I must turn in my father. It is for the good of our Emperor and China.

     
    #47693
    Denis Vovchenko
    Spectator

    I posted those comments in our last week's forum but here they are just in case.

    Clay’s Q = how effective are debates and simulations? Post on Db.

    My experience with historical debates has not been very positive. Their success depends on all students’ preparing carefully and not taking offense if someone’s performance is not in keeping with today’s “political correctness.” I had two groups of students debate the Crusades and at least two students “forgot” that it was just a role-play and became upset.

    Your father broke the law knowingly. What should you do as a Legalist?

    As a prominent Legalist scholar, I would use my influence at the royal court and other high circles of power to obtain a pardon issued by our illustrious and generous sovereign. Long live the Emperor! Even if my father committed a crime, the Legalist school of thought advocated harsh punishments only for the lower classes who can’t otherwise control their base bestial instincts. There may be exceptions like my father who prove the rule that the educated gentlemen general behave virtuously.

     

     

    #47694
    Denis Vovchenko
    Spectator

    How widespread was slavery in Song China? From the Attractions of the Capital, it seems that there were no slave markets. We can assume that most prostitutes were enslaved persons as in the Roman Empire, right?

     

    #47695
    Denis Vovchenko
    Spectator

    Going back to Clay’s lecture, the Jurchens and the Khitay seem sidelined in most secondary account and primary source collections. Did they continue any Tang and Northern Song practices? For example, were elite women under the Jurchens able to enjoy a degree of prominence they had in the Tang courts (like riding horses etc)?

    Marco Polo’s “Cathay” is derivative of “Khitay”, right? In Russian, even today “China” is “Kitay.”

     

     

    #47697
    Denis Vovchenko
    Spectator

     

    Ayse Zarakol’s critically acclaimed “Before the West” focuses on the Chingisid pioneering notion of sovereignty. It has a chapter  on the Mongol influences on the post-Yuan Ming dynasty.

     

    #47698
    Denis Vovchenko
    Spectator

    Great movie on the rise of Genghis Khan made in 2007, it was available from Netflix https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416044/

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