Session 3 - Clay Dube, 9/24

[clay dube]

Hi Folks,

In addition to the readings for session 19/15 (https://china.usc.edu/comment/168286#comment-168286) , please read the attached materials prior to the session. Please hit reply to comment on any of the ideas contained in them or to discuss how those materials or ideas might fit into a class activity or discussion.

Our session will include a historical encounter:

Encounter: Can We Save the Empire? Should We Save the Empire?

The Qing Empire and its peoples face critical choices. Foreign powers have invaded, forcing us to permit them to live amongst us along our coast, promoting their beliefs, sullying our empire. Rebellions have raged in different places, driven by different forces but always challenging Qing rule and producing instability. How are we to cope? What can and should be done?

For the purposes of this discussion, we’ll compress the period 1860-1910 and bring together groups that arose in different places and situations to discuss how to deal with the external and internal threats. What are the most pressing issues? How can they be dealt with? What changes are needed to ensure survival?

Ci Xi, the Empress Dowager (Tz’u Hsi慈禧, 1835-1908) will preside over the discussion. Three groups will participate, each with their own assessment of our challenges and how best to cope with them.

Leaders of the groups:

Li Hongzhang (Li Hung-chang李鴻章, 1823-1901)

Kang Youwei (K’ang Yu-wei康有為, 1858-1927)

Qiu Jin (Ch’iu Chin秋瑾, 1875-1907)

Members of the groups should examine the ideas and actions of the “self-strengtheners,” “reformers,” and “rebels.” Each person needs to invent her own past and social place and to argue from those experiences and positions. Some may wish to channel other prominent figures from the three camps (e.g., Zeng Guofan, Yung Wing (Rong Hong), Zuo Zongtang, Liang Qichao, Tan Sitong, Sun Yat-sen, Huang Xing, and Song Jiaoren).

Recommended Resources (read about the ideas espoused by the three contending groups, remember that it is vital to understand your opponents if you are to challenge them effectively):

Ebrey, Patricia Buckley, ed. Chinese Civilization: A Sourcebook, Second Edition. New York: The Free Press, 1993.

De Bary, William Theodore and Richard Lufrano, eds. Sources of Chinese Tradition, Volume 2: From 1600 through the 20^th Century, Second Edition. New York: Columbia University Press, 1999.

            Chen, Janet, Pei-kai Cheng, Michael Lestz and Jonathan Spence, eds. The Search for Modern China: A Documentary Collection, Third Edition. New York: Norton, 2013. 

 

Attachments:

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[Ingrid Herskind]

Kang Youwei proposed a utopian future world free of political boundaries and democratically ruled by one central government. In this scheme, the world would be split into rectangular administrative districts, which would be self-governing under a direct democracy but loyal to a central world government. This may sound outlandish to some, but as reformers, we must unite behind a common goal of boundariless democracy.

With this in mind, we must eradicate the capitalism that is working its way into our nation and drive toward socialist institutions. Kang welcomes any thoughts on how we should achieve these goals.  Write back any ideas you might have to strengthen our community and help us technologically and intellectually advance. Tech is the future!

[Ingrid Herskind]

I was struck by the importance of the Burlingame treaty in the immigration discussion. The US promised the Chinese the right to free immigration and travel within the United States. This promise would be completely upended in the 1882 Chinese Exclusion act (less than 20 years later). The act also allowed for the protection of Chinese citizens in the United States in accordance with the most-favored-nation principle. Another article gave the citizens of the two nations reciprocal access to education and schooling when living in the other country. All of these articles served to reinforce the principle of equality between the two nations.

In AP United States History, I think I will use the Burlingame Treaty and the Chinese Exclusion Act primary sources together to show the changing attitudes toward Chinese immigration. We could look into the census data to see the population changes and look at other newspapers and primary sources to investigate attitudes toward the new immigrants from China.

There are a number of political cartoons on Chinese Exclusion and the Burlingame Treaty by Thomas Nast.  Here is a website: https://thomasnastcartoons.com/resources/the-burlingame-treaty-of-1868/

[Margaret Siryj]

The article regarding central government and Zhang Zhidong (1837-1909) was thought provoking because it involved launching reforms without losing vision of Confuscianism.  Confuscianism thought during this approximately 65 -70 year period of Zhidong power focused on political and cultural ideas.  Self strengthening wanted to bolster Parliament, both Lower and Upper by appointed channels.  Lower Parliament included ways and means while Upper included legislature.  Strengthening within can begin with government as the overseers of the people of China.  Bolstering was the way to "save China".  Prior to this period, Mercantile Companies had a component of trickery and deceiving individuals.  One of the ways this was accomplished included "bogus stocks" meaning ownership of enterprises were synthetically made and not genuine stock.  Zhidong was interested in "stomping out counterfeit".  As a strengthener, I would hire a team of investigators and reward them for each counterfeiter seized and brought to justice.   Strengthening would include prosecuting to the highest extent of the law to ensure a deterrent to future counterfeiters.  Merchantile Companies would be rewarded for new innovation that improved our product output, creative ways for rooting out tricksters, and ways to improve productivity.  

Schools were a part of Zhidong government, but widespread schooling, including college/university would improve intellectual pursuits.  It is important to work on encroaching of foreigners as the article points out as vis a vis the French Revolution was about the sans coulette, the ignorant who would eventually become "min quan", people power and become rebellious toward the government.  The Tongmeng Revolution Proclamation of 1907 wanted to strengthen the borders.  This is a good strategy for us as the self-strengtheners.  By increasing our sense of nationalism, building our nation (min za) we can avoid a civil war from the reformers, and resist the rebels who are interested in robbing and plunder.

[Kathryn Sutherland]

I am a (more conservative) friend of Liang Qichao, mentee of Kang Youwei!  However, as a reformer, I do agree with Zhang Zhidong when he proposes to combine the Chinese and Western learning--look to the future, but remember the past. Do not throw everything away simply because some things are not working!  We must keep Confucianism as the foundation for our political and cultural identity.  We can fit Western advances in technology into our existing Confucian ways! Look to Japan!  

Foreigners are pushing for China to become a republic.  They wish to weaken China.  However, we do not need to give in to this Western way of life! To become a veritable republic will be pure chaos and fraught with corruption.  Just look at France! Look at America!  These are not models of Confucian values. Capitalism infects them.  These are defective and corrupt.  We should look to Japan instead!  Kang Youwei would agree that we can fit the constitutional monarchy modeled off of Japan into our Confucian values. We can advance with western technology without being seduced by western corruption.  My friend Liang Qichao would agree with me when I say we need to get rid of the corruption that exists in our government!  Just look at Li Hongzhang! Too much power for one man!  He does not embody the Confucian values that I espouse!

 

(side note: I feel very out of my comfort zone pretending to be someone else--and I imagine that some of our students would feel the same as me!  Does anyone have any ideas for how they would scaffold this task for nervous students?)

[Kim Leng]

How can anyone not listen to such a sage? Why continue to fight over property when property can be shared communally?  Borders only cause warfare!  Even husbands and wives can change partners yearly. And it'll take a country to raise children.  Isn't it wonderful that children are placed in public nurseries? Once we move to the final stage of the Grand Unity, we no longer will need laws and courts.  Why should we need justice when everything will be in perfect harmony? Theses ideas were part of a utopian society that Kang Youwei envisioned for China, but in the meantime, he had ideas for practical reform within China to deal with the foreign invasion.

Kang Youwei played such an important role in Chinese history that he was able to get Qing emperor, Guangxu, to listen to him and enacted The Hundred Days Reform.  The reform was cut short by dowager Cixi, but imagine what would happen had there not be a coup. I imagine China would have had a smoother transition to modernization.  Kang did not abhor western ideas.  He encouraged keeping Chinese culture, but acknowledged that the world is changing. Why not learn western medicine and anything western that’s useful?  The Chinese can still be keep their Chinese culture.  This new learning is just adding to their knowledge.  When Kang was warned by the emperor of the coup, he escaped to Japan, then Canada, and I was surprised that he was living in West Lake!  West Lake is MacArthur Park, Los Angeles, which is just next door to USC!  I think it’s crucial to bring this up in discussions about Kang’s life and influence.  I think students might find that interesting to know that an important figure in China’s history once lived in Los Angeles during his exile and that he was a poet and calligrapher! 

[Mario Galindo]

The Revolution Shall not be stopped!

Manchu no!

In honor of our Female Champion of Mirror Lake. “We mortals must grapple with difficulties and dangers in order to show what stuff we are made of.”

Equalization of landownership, now!

[Michael Frew]

As a reformer (Youwei) I believe we should look to the wisdom of our people to bring China to the world stage as an international force to off set our competitors in Japan who invaded our nation. By investing in our buddhist society, we will educate future scientists to compete with the advancements of rival nations. We should also eradicate the barriers of social standing that prevent women, our poor, and racial minorities from contributing to the betterment of China. By educating all of our population we will increase participation in government. Looking to nations in the west will bring valuable support in transitioning China to a better serving government, but with confuscious ideals that preserve our Chinese heritage. This will not be a quick tansformation, but instead one of many stages that coevolves with the education of our people. 

[Christine Moguel]

The “self-strengthening” movement came out of a need to modernize, industrialize, and strengthen the economy in China under the Qing Government.  The pressure was on for the government ‘step up their game’ to be able to establish itself as a powerful country as a result of a series of military defeats and foreign concessions.   The Self Strengthening movement had a leader that really helped open the door to foreign communication – lieutenant Li Hongxhang.  He lead the affairs ministry or ‘Yongli Yamen’ to help strengthen the economy and military.  The movement essentially radically moved toward the ideology – we must modernize to survive.  

[Gisela Gaona]

Hello fellow citizen,

I have read your argument and as a self-strengthener I respectfully have to disagree with you. We do not need to limit our great Qing Dynasty by limiting their power like Japan did. Instead, we must look within ourselves for the answer to our problems and realize that China already has the answers. Like you stated dearest reformer, what we need to do is work towards building our military, our weaponry, and most of all modernizing our technology. These are all things that we need to adapt to in order to continue being the Great China that the world knows us to be. We can absolutely save China, but we should not compromise our culture, our monarchy, or our people in order to defeat the foreign invaders!

[Ingrid Herskind]

The discussion during last night's lecture on China's changing population struck me as we see a slow down in growth, a reduction in births, fewer younger people, as well as an increase in the elderly population. For one, the greying of China’s citizenry is expected to push costs for elderly care — including operations of retirement homes and medical services — up from some 7% of the country’s gross domestic product to more than 25% by 2050. This is an interesting thing to consider as the United States and many other developed nations are going through similar situations. 

I was thinking this might be an interesting topic to consider in an international relations class or even in a statistics class. Using the stats, a class could show the change over time and then make more predictions about the "greying of China". 

Here's a great set of statistics projecting the changing demographics of China's population: https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-07-20/chart-chinas-aging-population-101306922.html

Here are some Pew Statistics comparing the aging trends in a number of nations: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/05/21/family-support-in-graying-societies/

[Lin Kuang]

I really enjoyed the "Encounter"to save Qing Qmpaire debate held among our cohort members among Strengthners ( Li HongChang), Reformers( Kang Youwei), and Rebellers.(qiu Jing), which is a highly resommended activitity for our schudents to practice in the classroom to help them put themselves in the historical places and experience what peple encountered and tried to find solutions through researching and debating for their critical thinking and creativity. I actullay have already shared the detailed lesson plans to our US history teachers on our campus. Representing Strengtherners, we argued that taking our nation to the madernization by sending people to USA or others countries to learn from foreigners how to use modern technologies to make our nation strong was the only way to save our nation from being conlonized and divided. Of course, the reformers think reforming the government and low enforcement system can actually save the nation from be divided by foreign intraders. The rebellers actually took actions and fought against the Qing Dynasty and overthrew the governemnt to build repblic nation for its people. Qiu Jing actually sacrifized her life for her belief. That's why she was honored as an national heroine in China as an example for follow recorded in Chinese history.

[Lin Kuang]

The data Dr.Dube collected actually reflects the reality of the population changing issues in China. The Elderly people's pupolution are much larger than the younger ones. The pupolation of females are much less than males in huge numbers, which craeted many related issues to challenge China's social welfare and benefits. Actually, it seems they are doing pretty well to respect elder people who retired. Actually, females can retire at the age of 55 and males at the age of 60. Theire benefits and medical bills are taken care by the government. Majority of them are enjoying their retire life with respect from the society. They organized variety of activities for elderly people. For the retired tecahers, they will never worry about their housing, medical bills , and other issues becasue the schools represting by the Government they worked for their entire lives will be responsible for them. They gather them together during the national holidays for voriety of activities and receive presents and additional bonus during the holidays such as, 9/10 teachers' day, 10/1 national holiday, Mid-autumn day, and Srping Festival. You name it. The entire society respect all elders. I have many teachers friends there talking about their glorious retiement and relaxing lives they have in China, but here the elder teachers are still teaching in the classroom worrying about their retirement and medical inssurance...

[Lindsay Reiss]

What a fun activity! I really loved taking on the persona of a rebel. I think it is important to remember that our students thrive when given opportunities to engage in content in different ways. We need to keep in mind that we have many different learning styles and preferences in our classes and it is our duty to keep our students in mind when planning. I would love to put this into action with my students and I think social studies would be a great place for me to plan it.

[Mario Galindo]

This article made me think out loud. Politics, death, patriotism, "Fake News", power, society, monuments, heritage. China's past and our 21st Century present are not that far off, I thought. Here's what I mean.

Hu Ying structures the piece under rememberance, imagining, and forgetting. How much of these are "truth" or propaganda? How much of history is just a "his" story recounted by the winners of society. I had not connected these parts they same way until this article made me. Similar ideas are argued by Jared Diamond and Howard Zinn, yet with them I had focused specifically to the United States's past or a greater "epic" spread of human history through millenia. With the specific application of "Nine Burials" my thinking went to the role of "policemen of the world", "freedom fighters", "liberators", through a kind of humanity lens where the focus was as complex as looking through a telescope toward the creation of a galaxy. The complexity of all this matter layering, infusing, and evaporating through regimes, political movements, historical "accidents" and unexplainable melding was the difference in connection.

Recently, the removal of Civil War era monuments and commenmorative statues of our own tiny history, for example. 242 years when compared to the history of East Asia I am beginning to understand is like a galaxy versus universe comparison, to build on my ananlogy. Is bringing down our stautues and memorials around the United States an example of what Hu Ying calls "erasure in the histoic narrative" like the disapeearance of a beheading of a rebelious Chinese poet activist? Is hiding the ugly, horrific past making it harder for contemporary peoples to understand the difference between real and "fake" news of our existence? Isn't it better to face the difficult, admit the mistakes of history, and allow a 21st Century mindset to grapple, fight, argue, or whatever comes from that, than white-wash, spoon-feed, and "protect" society from itself by hiding human history?

Yes, "Nine Burials" might turn into 10, 11, or 50. I think humanity deserves a chance at least to try and figure things out, though. Fearing what might, could, and probably will, happen is both part of the solution and the problem. Everything is at stake. That's the point.

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