session 3 - families in the making of asia

[Anonymous]

Professor Dube stated that one of the countries (South Korea?) has government sponsored dating programs. I recently listened to a podcast called the Hidden Brain on NPR that made the argument that one of the causes of continual poverty in the United States is intermarriage between social classes and educational levels. I was a little sad to know that I may contribute to these statistics! This has led me to wonder what is the socioeconomic effect of these dating programs in South Korea? Is poverty stagnating or increasing among the poor?
If you are interested in the podcast, here is the link: http://www.npr.org/podcasts/510308/hidden-brain (Episode 19: Dating and Mating)

[Anonymous]

Professor’s Dube’s lecture on the role of families was very interesting! I am usually not a very math-savvy person, but the statistics and graphs he showed us in his lecture were very helpful to understand the population trends in the different Asian countries. I particularly found his discussion on the efforts to restrict selective abortions especially shocking, and am wondering if more restrictive measures will eventually be taken to (like fines, more harsh punishments, etc.) continue to restrict the knowledge of knowing the gender of babies prior to birth in South Korea, China, etc. Also, Japan’s shrinking population makes me wonder what officials will do to stimulate the population; while immigration is an option, how can they encourage/shift the current population to produce more? Would it require more education presentations? Government incentives? Regulations?

I also appreciated the debate we had in the morning. Definitely an activity I could see myself doing with the Chinese philosophies, as well as adapting for other content. I also liked the suggestion Professor Dube gave about bringing in different school of thoughts from other civilizations to have the students discuss ideas (like Socrates).

@Kriztian, will definitely look into that podcast, looks interesting!
edited by jenniferlopez on 2/27/2016

[Anonymous]

Might restricting Doctors or other medical staff from disclosing the sex of a fetus cause an increase in female infanticide? People seem to find ways to reach their goals one way or another.

The impact of tax policy over a nation was astounding. I was amazed that the issues being faced today stemmed from ancient policy.
edited by cgao on 2/29/2016

[Anonymous]

I really enjoyed Dr. Dube's presentation on the love stats in the song from the Prairie Home Companion. I find it very interesting how times have really changed. When I was a child, it was most definitely frowned upon when a couple cohabitated. Just recently, I came across an episode of All in the Family. I didn't really watch this growing up, and I was appalled as to the things Archie Bunker was saying. I must say that tolerance is making a change in our world. We have come a long way to get to where we are at today.
edited by cseman on 4/25/2016

[Anonymous]

Wow! I don't consider myself a feminist at all, and I am somewhat traditional; however, this reading really left me with lots of questions. Did these woman not feel worthy of continuing to live without their husbands? What message did this send to young women? These women either chose to kill themselves or serve their mother-in-law for as long as they lived. I really don't get it! Was filial piety that important that woman chose to die or give up on their lives? I did wonder what would happen to the women that did decide to remarry after a husband's death. Keep in mind, these woman were really young and some did not have any children. I believe in being loyal and respectful to your family especially your elders, but life goes on.

[Anonymous]

Observing the statistics between life of males and females in China and United States was very fascinating. Both countries showed that females tend to live a bit longer than males however the differences are not far apart from one another. Marriage on the other hand was well organized and only placed together if men were ready to provide for a family.
What was fascinating was the amount of growth in population within each country through the years. To understand that China has grown in masses of population because of taxation was very interesting. Also, to understand that growth in education such as earned amount of PHD’s in Singapore and South Korea has shrank population growth eye opening. As an educator, I am thrilled to bring into my classroom the results of actions government, society and education can cause for a country.

[Anonymous]

My first question has to be, fidelity to what? The idea of marriage? The individual mate? To a sense of purity? Some of these women did not even know their husbands to be! So it must be to an idea. Fidelity to the idea of the woman one must be perhaps? And this view is reinforced by how the suicide was perceived by the surrounding culture. At least the primary source implies this. Fidelity is an interesting word because it implies an ongoing support, but suicide is an end. So I guess that I am forced to ask: How can suicide be a means of fidelity if one's life will be done? I disagree with the romantization of suicide so I guess that is my bias. How does fidelity look for different cultures? And why did these women find the need to rid their lives? Why do they see themselves as an extension to the men they are to marry? How is a woman's worth determined? Such tragic ends. I was left saddened by the personal accounts/anecdotes. Perhaps I do not understand enough to appreciate the sacrifice. Was there anything gained through this loss?

[Anonymous]

I do not consider myself a feminist either and I view myself as a very traditional as well. It seems to me that in those times women were view as merchandise, an item that can be used, and find worthiness only through marriage. I am not sure if suicidal was the best option these women had after the death of their husband or fiance. In our days it is inconceivable to take one’s life after the death of a love one, now women have self-esteem and different values. But then, who knows what their life would be like after becoming a widow. After all, girls had no saying in any decision about their own lives. They served and not even their shadows were to be seen.
edited by edelafuente on 3/6/2016
edited by edelafuente on 5/14/2016

[Anonymous]

After reading all the articles on concubines, widows, and other family dinamica concerning women, I came to the conclusion that being a women in China is not necessarily a great thing. Women all through the history of China found themselves placed in bad situations.

The article about the women who had lost husbands and fiances was very interesting. I see the value of taking care of family, even your husband’s family. It’s was very Confucious of you. The women had obviously been taught this tradition from a very young age. That even though the marriage had not even happened, you would serve your future mother in law after the death of your fiancee. In some cases never even have met him. It just shows that the value of promoting women was not a part of the culture.

Listening to the lecture on Saturday morning just reinforced this view of women. That even today in Asian societies, the abortion rate is extremely high. Not necessarily to end a pregnancy of inconvenience, but because it is not a male. That view of women has not changed all that much over hundreds of years. I found it interesting that in the midst of all this prejudice against women, China was one of the first governments to have an Empress to rule their country. I’m not quite sure what that was about, when they were not valued as highly as men. I hope this view of women is changing.

I’m not going to lie, it was very difficult listening to the abortion statistics and reasons why they practice this. I understand their reasoning, but do not agree with it at all.

[Anonymous]

For Seminar 3 readings the two the stood out the most were, "Family Instructions" and "Rules For the Fan Lineage's Charitable Estate." These two readings caught my attention the most because of the connections I made to the different philosophies we previously learned about.

I found the first of the two readings heavy in Confucianist teachings especially in the aspects of being filial to one's parents and in observing the rituals. I feel that I would have questioned several of the concepts presented in this reading had I not known of the different philosophies and their differences. Though this article outlined also outlined a few ideas reflective of other philosophies I feel most of it was representative of Confucianist ideas.

The second reading very much reminds me of the Legalist philosophies because of the emphasis on rules and steps to follow, but also to other philosophies. Also, the reference to rice as something of value. This makes me think that this places a high value in agriculture, therefore, it can also hint to Daoism. Despite the very structured elements I feel it also reflects Confucianist ideas because I feel it was meant to preserve family lineages.

Both of these articles and the rest that I didn't mention also clearly state the male importance in society and closely ties to what Professor Dube was lecturing about in class. Again, it made clear the connections with gender and statistics mentioned. I feel that my purpose in this class is to become more informed about a region I know very little about, and the readings, collaboration and lectures are definitely helping me reach my goal.

[Anonymous]

The session led to Dube saying that the decisions regarding family has an economic impact on China today. Today’s China can directly be attributed to prior government decisions and philosophical decisions regarding family. In “Women and the Problems they Create” in Chinese Civilization: A Sourcebook, the collection of short stories of women and the issues faced by women based on their social standing. It is the social standing and the woman's role in society that historically stopped any type of modernization.

Further stories in “Widows Loyal Unto Death” regarding the social standing of women, chastity and the prevailing culture of honor that comes from the sacrifice not to remarry (which impacts socio-economic standing) but includes death (the ultimate sacrifice). “Rules for the Fan Lineage’s Charitable Estate” the creation of family estates and the creation of current acquisition of power and future power that can be distributed to future generations. From the reading, it is possible for the lineage to move outside of blood relations to create a type of mafia. I found this reading to be the most interesting because of the importance to pass on any amount of wealth that is accumulated. What happened before this? Did this create powerful families that wanted to dominate others? In “Family Instructions” a how to regarding the character of the individual and how that character melds itself into the family unit would be an interesting side reading for my classes. I found the piece interesting and I think my students would enjoy the reading. In “Concubines” female ownerships, being poor and having a daughter that is difficult to marry off, the asset that can help a poor family move out of poverty is an interesting subject matter, but I am not sure how to add this to my curriculum unless it is part of a larger Women's Lit unit.
edited by cgao on 3/7/2016

[Anonymous]

This discussion on families led me to more questions than answers. Confucianism commands filial piety and the reading "Family Instructions" states that parents have special responsibilities and that parents act as "strict sovereigns" demanding authority and using their authority to maintain order & inspire respect in order that members will be obedient. As there are many parenting guides in the United States advising the ideal family, I suspect that this may be the ideal in theory, but what happens in practice? What about irresponsible parents? Opium addiction has been a struggle throughout some Chinese history. What happened to families who may have had an incapacitated sovereign? Were there/are there any social programs to help children that may have delinquent parents? Was a child punished for not remaining loyal to a "bad" parent? Was the family itself ostracized? How does China, specifically (although the same familial loyalty seems to be present in most East Asian cultures), deal with bad parenting? As someone who is from the United States which has a history of expecting and encouraging independence from an early age, I struggle with this as much as I admire it. The sense of security of having a family to depend on, to having clearly defined roles within the family, and the closeness of family is a great strength but a concept that is so foreign to me, I can't imagine how it works.

[Anonymous]

I want to be careful when studying women's roles in China. I think it can be problematic when we read about women and don't understand the historical context or traditions. Framing women's roles in the philosophies (for ex. Confucian scholars and the importance of family) helps us understand why women are expected to behave in certain ways. As someone educated in the "west," I don't want to jump to conclusions that women in Asia don't have any rights. Even in the U.S., women's suffrage is fairly new. We have never had a female president, but China had a female empress (Empress Wu) over 1000 years ago. Does this make us backwards?
My question:

Are women's roles created through interpretation of philosophies and religions, or do philosophies and religions take existing roles and solidify them in doctrine?

[Anonymous]

Session 3
Rules for the Fan Lineage Charitable Estate
In my opinion, the Chinese had a good system in which they cared for their people. Of course, you were taken better care of depending on your ranking in society,,age, and social status. I found it interesting that they considered everything from the amount of rice and silk to the costs of marriages and burials. They were efficient in making sure that everyone was accounted for and when someone expired, they were quick to readjust the amount of rations. I think they were compassionate when it came to caring for people when hard times were experienced, and evaluated the need and made changes and additions to aide in their relief. It was also interesting how they were prepared for a surplus and had a plan in action to sale off any extra and save. This type of organized patrilineal kinship really benefits the whole community and protects and supports groups of people who may have fallen on hard times or who cannot take care of themselves. It also benefits the groups of people who have been born in a better situation or higher social standing.

[Anonymous]

Session 3
Widows Loyal Unto Death
This was a difficult read for me because it is hard for me to relate to women ending their lives because they’ve lost their spouses. I understand and can imagine the love and sorrow one must feel in such a sad time, but I don’t understand the not being able to move forward. And for these women, it does not seem like they ended it because of their love for their husbands ,yet the attention and praise for being a martyr.In the Bible, Ruth stays with her mother in-law after her husband dies and is a role model for women in serving others and showing gratitude and loyalty. Lin Shunde and Zhang Zhongyu stood out to me because they showed the same gratitude as Ruth and stayed with their husband’s families and lived secluded lives. I still have trouble understanding not having your own purpose and drive in life, but I was born in a different time and culture with different messages and opportunities presented to me. Wang Jingjie was another woman. who gave her savings to her father in-law to help with burial costs for her husband but I cannot grasp her decision to hang herself. Her family loved her and was worried about her and she still planned and carried through with her suicide. I guess I find suicide disturbing for any culture and time period, especially when it concerns young, healthy women who could have gone on to have happy and productive lives.

[Author]

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