Session 8 - May 2 afternoon (dube - ming and qing dynasties)

[Esther Dupree]

A huge deterrent for wanting to open their borders and ports to immigrants or international businesses was laid out in the ever changing borders in Europe.  China would have wanted to maintain control over the land in their country.   Other countries also practiced imperialism and colonialism and opening up borders could put China at risk for that.  Another reason they wouldn't want it open is to avoid too much influence form other countries.  Today, North Korea keeps people out in order to maintain a strict order in their country.  There are other countries who work to preserve the integrity of their culture from outside influences as well and not in such a drastic isolationist practice.  Some benefits to opening borders is inviting economic stimulus.  Trade and business with other countries can often increase market production and improve a standard of living.  However, incoming businessmen and government do not always have the best of intentions and take advantage of the people, destroy the environment or cause political unrest.  This is a reality that exists down to every person in the world.  What influences will we allow in our lives?  How do we protect ourselves from fraud or harm?  How do we take our best skills and assets and share them with the world?  I believe East Asian countries have had every reason to historically (and currently) resist communication and trade with other countries.  It is difficult to prevent exploitation from a culture with different technology and different values and communication styles.  I think there are some beautiful examples of how countries benefit from a rich tapestry of immigration and cultural reciprocity.  Unfortunately, change is rarely avoidable.  The best approach is to probably build slow and steady interaction over time if you don't want too much changes in the status quo.  This would be a fantastic discussion for the students at my high school.  Our school was featured in a documentary where they talked about how basically 99% of our students are Hispanic/Latino and how they rarely get a chance to interact with people from other ethnic or cultural or even socioeconomic backgrounds.  The students could discuss the pros and cons to going to different schools, bringing students from other schools, or developing partnerships with students with varied populations and then compare their thoughts on how this relates to outside influences in East Asian countries.

[Esther Dupree]

I like your choice of values in how you would describe the Hongwu Emperor.  Could you use these examples of how to define the current values of their principal? teacher? parents?  What values do they see around them vs. what values do they want to see around them?  

[Jessica Ng]

I think you are right to use the word "discipline" both in the sense you clarify above, and in referring to punishment. Keeping in mind his humble upbringing, experience in the monastery, and good intentions for his constituents, I couldn't help but be shocked at the ruthless tone of his proclamations! The death penalty, forced labor, and flogging he mentions are pretty extreme punishments; a little further research reveals that he also favored flaying and "death by a thousand cuts" as torture and execution methods.

[Jessica Ng]

Judging from the proclamations and placards emphasized, I would say the Hongwu Emperor valued integrity, practicality, and order. I say practicality because he makes such an example of the "riffraff" who interrupt the work of farmers and laborers, and even seems to say that petty crimes and issues can be ignored in favor of continuing agricultural work.

I found his complaining about punishing people in the morning only to have more crimes committed by evening and the corpses piling up before previous ones have been removed to be darkly comical. We as teachers know that classroom management based only on punishments and consequences doesn't work! Did the emperor make any decrees or efforts about punishing but also rehabilitating those who committed crimes or otherwise participated in undesired behavior?

[Sandra Flores]

Hi Billie I agree with your post.  We do not know what other's intentions are for migrating to a country. And like to mentioned above, religion is probably the most dangerous weapon in the world.  Religion has been a debate and a controversial topic for a long time and although religion is very old, many people are willing to kill to defend their beliefs.  I recently learned about the Pastafarian religion and the how they are trying to convert people.  One good thing about being open, is that different cultures come in contact with each other, learn about each other, learn to appreciate and respect one another.  I enjoy travelling and I have learned more about a culture by visiting a country and communcating with locals than from a textbook or movie.  

[Hilda Dixon]

People can be bribed and if they have the means they could engage in corrupted activities. Money is a powerful drive because it tempts officials who are willing to use their power to make theirs part of the revenue of the government and grain. It is hard for the government to reinstate honest behavior among its officials. It is hard for the empire to control their officials. Provincial officials played many roles such as tax collectors and judges which made it easier to them to be tempted. This is one of the factors that the empire is declining.

[Hilda Dixon]

When I read the article about the chinse manuscript at the Huntington library, and heard that many of the mystical animal bronze heads from Imperial Gardens in The Old Summer Palace are in Europe or are now part  of private collections,  it came to my mind that many of the items from my indigenous ancestry are now kept in European or American museums without any intention to return.  In my own experience I feel robbed of my rich ancestry that made me proud of whom I am. I wonder how Chinese people feel about this.

Additionally, the Chinese Boxing rebellion reminds me about the grandsons of the Christian missionaries that went to Hawaii. First missionaries, and westerner traders seemed nice until they felt empowered. We see the honeymoon phase with emperor Yongzheng (1678-1735) who welcomed Occidentalism.  Interacting with westerners might have looked appealingly exotic for both parts, so Chinese people tried to adopt western etiquette. Later on, it was too late to reverse the course of the situations. The Trojan horse was already China. Missionaries got the international support, so it was possible for them to ignore their tax obligations with the Chinese government which infuriated Chinese people. After the Chinese were defeated during the Chinese boxing rebellion, China had to paid $333 million dollars as penalty for its rebellion.  I wonder what Iraq, and Afghanistan would say to USA now that their countries are immersed in more poverty and seen the destruction of their countries every day because in my opinion USA did not win the war.

[Hilda Dixon]

When reading this week’s articles, there were some things that struck my attention. The merchants do not have a low social status anymore in the case when we read about Japan and Korean ancient cultures. During the Ming Dynasty 1368-1644, the merchants are well dressed, rode carriers with double-harnessed horses and had beautiful girls with them, too. During this time, merchants were needing them and no longer seemed as part of the low social status. In regards to having an open market, I think it was not easy for Chinese people to decide what was best for them. They thought if they were not open regarding trading with foreigners; perhaps, they were more likely to confront pirates. In addition, they were aware that they needed foreign items as they needed to sell Chinese goods to foreigners. By that time, societies needed to interact which each other. When I was reading the article, it made me sad that parents would sell their own sons or daughters. I wonder how difficult this could have been for the sold daughters and sons to foreigners. I also think that living in that time and being immersed in poverty, selling their own kids was a vehicle to provide for the other family members.

[Sandra Flores]

Hello Hilda, I too found it devastating that parents had to sell their children in order to survive and help the rest of the family survive.  That is probably a difficult decision for a parent to take.  I watched the documentary "One Child Nation" and I learned that many Chinese families gave out their children for adoption while others just left them at a market and waited for them to be picked up or die.  This documentary was very disturbing, but I learend a lot of history and politics about China.  At that period of time, they believed for this to be the best thing for the country, but now there is reprecussions and that one child policy is no longer in order.  Instead they are promoting for families to have two children instead.  I also learned that Chinese families would sometimes give up thier daughters, the boys were more important and useful.  Female babies were seen as a burden.  

[Meghann Seril]

Hi Hilda. You bring up an important point about artifacts from all different cultures around the world that are no longer in their location of origin. I have also heard of artifacts being privately owned and traded. I would think that museums and organizations would have a responsbility to return the property back to the rightful owner. There is so much knowledge to be lost especially from artifacts that have been hidden away in private collections.

[Cynthia Stults]

Hilda, I love your observation about the improvement in the lives of the merchant class during this dynasty. Since we have seen the placards and what is of value to at least one of the emperors, this improvement makes sense. As hard work is seen to be of value (as you pointed out in an earlier post), it stands to reason that merchants, while not completing as much manual labor as the farmers, are still engaged in meaningful, productive work. I find it incredibly interesting how in China there seems to be more emphasis on merit (rather than heritage) when compared with other East Asian countries. It makes sense why some of the Korean young men left Korea for China.

[Chad Espinoza]

The commerical activities of described in Ebrey's work are nothing short of sophisticated. The systems are so advanced that they even seem to be beynd the daily dealings of people today. The trajectory of the merchant families during the Ming dynasty also seemed very familiar. The mercahnts made money, educated their offspring, who then became scholars and government officials. Essentially, wealthy businessmen were able to garner poltical inlfuence through their wealth. A phenomenon America is very familar with. Another familiarity is the striving for wealth and the things it brings. In Zhang's essay, he is very aware of the power, status, and sex wealth brings. And even mentioned the suffering that occurs. For my students, I think reading this article (well parts of it) would help them to see how the pursuit of wealth is not exclusive to American life, and that it is something that humans have always dealt with. Establishing this will allow my students to write a reflection piece on humans and their desire for wealth and why humans have always been willing to do just about for money. 

[Brigid Schmidt]

As both Billie and Sandra mentioned there are risks and benefits for the Chinese leaders to be open to the European Jesuits. Still to this day religion is a subject that causes controversy and is not supposed to be debated during family functions! It is interesting that the Jesuits were able to "sell" the idea of Christianity to the Ming rulers at the same time when Japan was saying no to missionaries. The benefits that the Chinese leaders saw were the idea of morality in Christianity, but more importantly, the advancements in science. They saw Europe moving ahead in science, so this was of interest. The advancements in astronomy and geography were tempting to the Ming rulers. They wanted their country to advance more as well. However, Christianity is very different than Confucianism or Buddhism, so there were bound to be conflicts. Just as we see in our country, many people feel very strong in their beliefs and it is difficult to change someone's mind on what to believe. 

[Mario Ruiz]

Hey Cynthia, 

You bring up good points for both schools of thought. In thinking about my heritage and culture, I enjoy teaching others what some of my peoples' customs include and it's a great thing to see people educating others on their heritage and different backgrounds. However, I start to think about how sometimes cultural beliefs and customs may become appropriated and sometimes turned into insulting ideas. Take Cinco de Mayo for example. It's believed that it's a Mexican holiday, but in reality, we do not celebrate it at all. People use it as an excuse to drink which perpetuates a negative stereotype to the Mexican culture. 

[Betsy Ures]

I found the story titled "The Spirit of the King of the Three Mountain Tells Everything" to be very intriguing. The use of religious beliefs and spirituality to manipulate people to admit the truth in researching the missing person report was so familiar. When I read how the magistrate told the father how the Spirit had exposed the truth, the father admitted to selling his daughter off to remarry. It's similar to how law enforcement uses manipulation in interrogation during an investigaton. The belief in sprits and buddhas was used against people according to the casebook. Students may find this story interesting and informative of the social norms of the Qing Dynasty.

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